How to Find a Financial Advisor You Can Trust
In From Bourbon to Finance: How to Find a Financial Advisor You Can Trust, James Vermillion, founder of Vermillion Private Wealth, joins host William Glass to discuss what to look for in a financial advisor. You’ll learn:
- Preparation is the key to success
- How to pick a financial advisor
- Finding peak performance in your career
James has built multiple businesses including a real estate flipping business, bespoke candle company, and his own financial advisory practice. This episode is jam-packed with value. In addition, I had the pleasure of sitting down on James’s podcast called Bulls, Bears and Bourbon. Check it out wherever you listen to Silicon Alley.
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About James Vermillion
James is the Founder of Vermillion Private Wealth and Wixology Candle Company. His curiosity about entrepreneurship led him to start his first company while serving as an officer in the US Air Force. Since then, James has continued to grow as an entrepreneur. As the owner of Vermillion Private Wealth, James serves as a fee-only financial advisor and investment management, overseeing investment portfolios that focus on innovative and disruptive technologies. With Wixology, James works alongside his co-founders to continue to grow the brand, emphasizing sustainability.
Learn more about James Vermillion: https://vermillionprivatewealth.com/
Transcription
This transcription is autogenerated and may contain errors.
William Glass: [00:00:00] One of the areas finance I am most skeptical about is finding a financial advisor. Who’s actually good at what they do and will put your interests first. Unfortunately. Uh, not so great things out in the wealth management industry, but luckily we were sitting down with James Vermilion who was going to give you all of the things that you need to know in order to find the right financial advisor for you, and really understand what you should be looking for when interviewing and talking to financial advisors, James Vermilion is from Vermilion private wealth.
And has started his own firm after going from the air force to being in the bourbon business, to working at a large financial advisory practice where he wasn’t always able to put his client’s interests at heart, because it would go against what was best for the firm. And instead started his own practice where he can really focus on building those relationships.
What he’s learned is that preparation is key above anything else. And if you were properly prepared, that is the most important thing. Business. And second is how to find that peak performance in your career in life. James actually hosts a podcast called the bulls bears and bourbon podcast, which I had the pleasure of sitting down on.
So definitely go check out that episode. We got to sip some bourbon and talk a little bit about money and finances. So definitely go check that out. I’m William Glass CEO and co-founder of estrogen, of course, your host of the Silicon alley podcast. Whereas my job to talk to top performers, entrepreneurs, and VCs, to understand what it truly takes to grow and scale a business.
If you have not already, please go and pound that subscribe button so you can notify one when it air every Friday and without further ado, I hope you enjoy today’s finance focused episode of the Silicon alley podcast, featuring the James Vermilion.
Are you interested in growing and scaling your business? Welcome to the Silicon alley podcast, where you’ll hear from entrepreneurs, venture, capitalists, and top performers on what it truly takes to grow and scale a business. You’ll walk away with actionable insights. You can apply in your own business and life.
Now Dwayne blasts, the CEO and co-founder of ostrich and your host of the Silicon alley podcast.
James welcome to Silicon alley podcast. Super excited to have you on.
James Vermillion: [00:02:07] Yeah. Good to talk to you again, William.
William Glass: [00:02:10] I know. Yeah. I feel like we just did this one a couple of weeks ago, but, uh, inverse
James Vermillion: [00:02:15] I’m on your turf now, man. So
William Glass: [00:02:18] exactly. Yeah. And so if you don’t know what I’m referencing, James hosts, a podcast called bulls bears and bourbon, which is a lot of fun. We, had, a very strong Ry, uh, during that conversation, which was, uh, delicious.
But man, I was feeling it at the end there.
James Vermillion: [00:02:32] Yeah, it was. Not mild. Put it that way, but, uh, this is, this is not bourbon in my glass by the way. It’s just coffee today. So
William Glass: [00:02:41] fair enough. Fair enough. Well, yeah, I’m excited to dive in. We kind of touched on it and you’ve got a really interesting background, um, as an entrepreneur in finance.
Doing all these, these various things. But I’d love to just start out and understand before you got into your career, you’re in the air force. Can you talk to me a little bit about your time in the air force and how that’s kind of impacted you moving
James Vermillion: [00:03:05] forward? Yeah, definitely. The. Reason. I went into the air force that, you know, yes, I’m patriotic.
Yes. I love America and all those things, but if I’m being perfectly honest, the reason I joined the air force was to, to get an education. And I was a junior senior in high school and I was talking with my mom, you know, how are we going to pay for this college thing? What’s the, you know, w w what’s the situation.
And so she and I sat down. Um, I actually did want to join the military at some point. Didn’t really know both my parents were in the air force. Didn’t really know about the officer side of things. And my mom, you know, came up with, you know, she was like, if you’d looked into this ROTC scholarship and I hadn’t, I hadn’t heard of it.
We didn’t have ROTC at our school at the time. I think they may have it now, as far as junior Razzi. So that sounded really good. So I went through that process of, you know, applying for that ROTC scholarship and was very lucky, um, to get that and had a four year ride to university of Kentucky, which is about 45 minutes from my hometown in Frankfurt.
So that worked out great. So that that’s kind of how I ended up in the air force, but, what a unique experience that was to be thrust at age 26. As an officer into a leadership role, not knowing what the hell you’re doing and, and trying to figure out, figure it out step by step and, and day by day.
And it really learned so many things, you know, that whole trial by fire and that sort of thing. That’s really what it was. And a lot of those lessons directly correlated with trying to start a business. Whereas, you know, you’re constantly putting out fires. You’re constantly learning new things. You’re constantly realizing you’re ill-equipped in certain areas and trying to write those, those before they get out of hand.
So it was definitely a great learning experience, a great leadership opportunity, great educational opportunity. And it just kinda set the stage for my future. It was never something I intended to make a career of really. And, but it’s something I definitely have no regrets about. It was a fun. Exciting and very educational experience.
Yeah,
William Glass: [00:05:18] no, that makes a lot of sense. And, I think that’s one of the great things, about what the military and ROTC scholarship pride is the ability to go get an education and take advantage of some of the benefits that are, that are unique when you choose to serve the country. What have you translated into your entrepreneurial career?
I’m curious if there’s anything specific that like you’ve really, really taken, you mentioned trial by fire, you know, learning to overcome some obstacles. What are some of the things that you as an entrepreneur really look back on and say, I can tie that back to my time in the
James Vermillion: [00:05:50] air force. Well, I think the cliche answer would probably revolve around discipline, right?
I mean, that’s kind of the thing when people think of, when they think of serving in the military, going through boot camp and waking up early and, you know, hospital corners on your bed and don’t get me wrong. All of those lessons are super valuable. I think. A fairly disciplined person, even before that.
So it was a good fit for me personally, but really the lessons that I think resonated and carried over the most were more relational because here I was at 22 year old kid didn’t know anything about what I was doing. I ended up being a munitions maintenance officer, working on components for nuclear Wells.
Basically. So obviously I know I did, I had no background. I was a political science major for crying out loud. And so here I was working on the nuclear program in the air force and I was quote unquote in charge of, or, or overseeing people who had 25 years of experience. And, you know, the classic young officer mistake is to walk in to the show.
Like you own the place and start telling people how smart you are and how much better you’re going to make things. And I learned from my parents who were enlisted and. Incredible people. And we’re, we’re, you know, in the air force, that’s, that’s not a good approach. That’s not going to get you very far.
And so I really tried to embrace and learn from the people that were there. And, and I realized pretty quickly that if I were going to be successful in what I was trying to do was going to be because of the people around me, not because of me. So I’ve always tried to kind of take those lessons and apply them even, you know, for my business, with Vermilion private.
I’m a solo practitioner, but relationships are still the most important part of my business. Yeah,
William Glass: [00:07:45] no, I’m I appreciate you diving in there. And I think that’s a really important mistake that, I know when I first moved into management and it was, was managing people and, you know, a couple people that were older than me, I’ve made some of those mistakes, right.
That, uh, you know, oh, I, you know, I can do it better than, you know, the other bot, the other boss. Right? Like, and then you get in there and you’re like, wow, this is a. A lot different than, than what I anticipated. So that’s incredible that you came in with that knowledge and your parents helped to guide you because it’s definitely a mistake.
That is a, is a common one.
James Vermillion: [00:08:17] My dad made. Very sure that I wouldn’t do that. I’ll put it that way. And I appreciate that very much.
William Glass: [00:08:25] Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing that’s really interesting is that it sounds like you made the decision. You sat down with your mom, it sounded like it was you sitting down saying, Hey, how are we going to do this whole college thing?
Um, right. So there’s a focus and it sounds like about planning and thinking about finances. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Cause you’ve obviously ended up in wealth management, so you’re, you’re interested in investing in finance, but have you always had that.
James Vermillion: [00:08:49] That was a hell of a good transition.
I’ve got to say. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think so. You know, one thing I’ve always been proud of with my parents is they both have done better than where they came from. And I don’t mean better as far as people, I just mean financially and being in a position to. Provide us with opportunities. And I’ve always taken that very seriously and tried to not screw that up and, and hopefully continue that and provide my children.
I have one daughter now with even better opportunities than I had. So I’ve always taken that really seriously. And I was, you know, a really good student in high school for the most part. And no one in my family had graduated from college. So we hadn’t gone through that before. So yeah, there was an element of that.
Me thinking forward. I knew I wanted to, advance my education. Didn’t really know exactly what that would look like. And my parents knew as well, and they obviously wanted that for me. So I think it was a combination of my parents realizing that’s what I wanted to do and wanting to be available to help me, but certainly in my mind as well, there was, the thought of what do I need to do next?
What’s what’s the best move for me, kind of looking forward in my life and where I want.
William Glass: [00:10:04] No, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And so when you came out of the air force, you ended up in finance. Can you talk to me about that transition and, you know, definitely want to get into what ultimately led you to want to strike out on your own and talk about some of the other first entrepreneurial
James Vermillion: [00:10:24] endeavors that you yeah.
And I won’t give my whole life story here because there, there are a lot of twists and turns, I think. It really started when I, when I got out of the air force, like I said, I knew it wasn’t going to be a career. You know, I wasn’t going to be a lifer. I really never planned on it. Um, I did consider it a little bit, but never too seriously.
I was already married and we were ready to move back to Kentucky and, and, you know, go ahead and put some roots in and things like that. So that was kind of off the table. At that point, I actually got a call from, a very good friend, one of my best friends from high school who was working in the bourbon bit.
He said, Hey, are you still getting out? Are you still moving back? You know, what’s that look like? Someone at our company just left and I think you’d be a great fit. So I ended up in the bourbon business, working for Blanton’s bourbon, which is a fantastic product out of Buffalo trace. If you haven’t had it, go try it.
It’s it’s amazing. And I did that for a while, working on the international side, kind of this hybrid sales, logistics, position during that period, I met another friend and he was in the wealth man. Business. And he’d asked me a couple of times, as we got to know each other a little more. Hey, would you ever consider.
You know, coming into this business and maybe working at my firm, it’s a great firm, all of these things. And I said, no, you know, I’m really happy. I’m traveling the world, you know, pushing bourbon, you know, how much better can it get? But over time, you know, I, I considered it a little more and he’s a pretty convincing guy, which is why he’s so successful.
And I ended up making that switch. This was, you know, about three, four years ago and. Didn’t really know what I was getting into. So fortunately I kept one foot in the door and still do some work with Blanton’s. But yeah, so I made that shift over to wealth management. There were some things that I love, some other things that I didn’t like quite so much.
I, I, you know, then we could fast forward and get to the why I kind of struck, struck out and decided to, to. You know, develop my own firm, but it’s a really good fit for me as a whole, because I do like those planning elements. I do like talking with people, I like relating to people and, and, and all of those things.
And I just felt like, Wealth management gets a little bit too bureaucratic, a little bit too stuffy. I think when people think about going to talk to a wealth advisor or a financial advisor, whatever, they, they feel like they’re getting ready to go play in their funeral and pick out a casket. And I don’t want it to feel that way.
I want it to be fun. I want people to actually enjoy thinking about their future instead of, of dreading. Yeah, no, that
William Glass: [00:12:55] makes a lot of sense. And you know, that the planning aspect, right. It sounds like that that was a really nice fit. So what were some of the things that you liked about financial planning, working for a firm and some of the things that ultimately led you to, to strike out on your own?
I think if I’m not mistaken, real estate was a, was a part of. In terms of what you incentivized to essentially advise clients to do, but we’d love to hear a little bit about what ultimately led you to start your practice.
James Vermillion: [00:13:25] Yeah, that’s a great question. And there it’s really, it’s difficult to answer, to be honest with you because there are so many kind of bits and pieces that, that on their own, weren’t really a big deal, but combined in the timing of things and, and COVID happening and my daughter being born and some of the things going on.
In my life kind of collided with some of my thoughts on the business side of things. And it kind of just really made for this situation where I said, okay, this is the right time. I should go ahead and do this, but kind of going back to where I was before. You know, I love the wealth management space in the sense that I’m fascinated by this stuff.
Right. I love learning about it. Even now where I’m doing it every day, I still just really enjoy reading some white paper on some fascinating topic that I maybe don’t understand as well as I want to. And I love thinking about the future and I get excited about the world 20 years from now. And I get excited when I think about the world that my one-year-old daughter is going to live in.
I look around so many other people are so scared of the future and they’re so worried about things going wrong. I don’t, I don’t see most of those things. And maybe, maybe that’s not always a good thing, but I’m very optimistic. I really believe that things are improving even when we don’t see them in the news and we don’t see them in the media.
And that’s the part I like. I like talking about the future with people and hopefully shining a positive light. On things and getting people excited about their future and what they can achieve. And hopefully being just a small part of enabling people to find success in a way that they want to. But there were also some things I didn’t like and namely it was around how I could do these things.
And as you know, anytime you get in a big company for that company to operate efficiently, They just have to kind of put people in boxes and this is your role, and this is your role and you stay in your box, you stay in your lane. And I struggled with that because there were some things I wanted to provide.
Some advice I wanted to provide. And you brought up the real estate thing. If, if a client came to me and really want to talk about buying real estate or something like that, I had to be pretty careful about it. Especially if it’s an investment property, about how much advice I could provide.
On that investment, since it was kind of outside of the firm, you didn’t want to, you know, sell away clients when they could be putting their money with you. They’re putting it somewhere else. And things like that. On the marketing end, I really wanted to do a podcast. I really wanted to spend time creating content writing.
I’d love to yeah. And I couldn’t do those things. So I wasn’t spending my day in a way that really kind of was peak happiness for me, you know? And I, and I struggled with that a little bit, and I’ve said this, on some other platforms and I truly believe it, peak performance occurs when you can be yourself and when you can play to your strengths.
And I really wasn’t feeling that I was operating at at peak capacity. So I wanted to make a change to hopefully get to that. Yeah,
William Glass: [00:16:22] no, that makes a lot of sense and the limitations, right? I think that’s, that’s one of the key things that drives a lot of people to start something of their own is, you know, being stuck in that structure and not being able to, you know, do the things that you really want to do create.
To, you know, advise people on what you felt like was the best full picture versus just, Hey, here’s the one thing that you’re allowed to talk about. Right? Know, there’s all these other things that might be a great fit and, you know, being stuck in that, in that structure. So, James, what’s it been like starting the practice.
What have, what has been that experience and what are some of the challenges that you’ve, that you’ve had to face early?
James Vermillion: [00:17:02] Well on the whole, it’s been fantastic. It led me to a world of things that are out there that I actually had no clue existed. There are financial tools that are just incredible, that I didn’t have access to before there are platforms to work with my clients that are out there that are very easy to use, very intuitive and great fits for my clients.
So there, there are, there’s a whole world, a whole suite of things out there that I have no clue about. So it’s been really exciting to. Not just learn what those things are, but to incorporate, incorporate them into my practice and, and, you know, get client feedback and determine what’s the best way forward.
Is that something you like? Is that something you didn’t like? So really building the practice that I want that gets me exciting or excited, but there, there have been some challenges, no doubt. And as you can imagine, and as you know, with what you’re doing with ostrich, and I don’t know, maybe not to the same extent, but it’s a very, very heavily regulated.
Industry and, you know, for a small business, I mean, big firms have compliance departments that are staffed with many, many, many people. So, you know, trying to make sure that I’m doing all of the things I need to do by the book. And the book is massive. It’s definitely a challenge, but again, there are tools out there that make those tasks easier and it’s a matter of finding them and implementing them.
So you’re juggling as, you know, as an entrepreneur you’re juggling and right when you get into a good flow with, with four balls here comes another one. So. That’s the challenge. It’s making sure you’re spending your time on things that are actually productive. And for me productive means, are they benefiting my clients or is it just something that makes me feel good?
Because ultimately my job is to make sure my clients feel good. And that’s what I wanted.
William Glass: [00:18:49] Yeah, no, I love that. And the, the compliance piece is definitely a whole monster in and of itself. There’s just, especially if you’re creating, right. So creating a podcast, if you’re writing, like there’s, there’s so many things that you have to think about when you’re in such a heavily regulated industry that, you know, most people don’t even think about it.
They can post whatever pictures, say, whatever they want on social media and it is what it is. Right. They might get a little blow back from. You know, they’ve got strong opinions, but beyond that, it’s not like they’ve got to worry about, regulatory bodies
James Vermillion: [00:19:20] coming down on them. Yeah. I got, I had a conversation the other day.
Yeah. And I, I, I think I got a little animated, so I’ll try to keep it a little calmer today. You know, I was thinking about the medical profession and I could be wrong. I don’t want, you know, any doctors or whoever you might have listening to come at me, but the amount of information on clients that I have to get, keep understand before I can implement certain things with them.
And then I think about going to a doctor where I fill out a form. Yes. But the doctor’s in there for three minutes, didn’t ask me anything. And then they just prescribed something. I’m like, it seems like, you know, as, as important as money. Health is probably even more important or not probably health is more important.
So I, I feel like there’s certainly an outsized eye on the financial space, but you could obviously argues for good measure and to keep people from getting taken, if you will, by by bad players. Yeah,
William Glass: [00:20:14] no, no. I mean, there’s obviously obviously a purpose. That’s interesting comparing it to yeah. To the medical profession.
I think collectively less time than I saw the doctors, like the last three or four times I maybe saw them for like, I don’t know, maybe five minutes, if you add up the entire time, uh, you know, there’s three visits, right? It was maybe five minutes the whole time. Cause it’s like, I wasn’t one of the 80 year old clients that had a lot of problems.
Right. So. Uh, not yet. Yeah. Yeah. Knock on wood. Hopefully it stays that way, but, it’s very, very interesting how, how another still heavily regulated industry just in different ways,
James Vermillion: [00:20:49] operates. It is. And, and, and it can be frustrating at times, but it’s one of those things. Kind of the cost of entry.
So you do those things, you do them well, and you create as few problems for yourself as you can later. So that’s kind of the attitude. I try to take like that.
William Glass: [00:21:07] So what are some of the things that make your practice unique that make it different? And maybe it’s the, you know, talking about the kind of like target customers you go after or how you work with them.
But I’m curious, what are some of the things that make you unique?
James Vermillion: [00:21:23] That’s a great question. I think it goes back to. Kind of the origin of how I built the firm instead of starting with what experiences did I like, my prior firms and trying to replicate those, I started with, what do I not like, what do I not think?
The clients like. And I tried to find ways to ensure that they were not part of the experience with clients of Vermilion private Wells. So that was my starting point, but some of the things I think that are different, I was willing to step out a little bit and try some different things. And a good example is the custodian platform that we use.
We use altruists which the CEO, Jason wink is just an incredible guy. Great team of people behind the scenes, really working to modernize and provide broader accessibility of financial services. And they’re doing an incredible job. They’re very young though, and they don’t have the robust system that a Schwab does.
And, you know, some people might have said, Hey, I need to check all of these boxes. But for me, the important part was. Will this work. Does it meet these requirements? Yes. Okay. That’s good. Are they improving? Are they really trying? Are they listening? Are they accepting feedback? What’s really behind the scenes.
What’s that culture like? And that to me was the difference. When you look at some of the existing traditional finance, and then you look at some of the new stuff out there, there’s a culture gap. And I would rather for the most part. Work with people, whether there’s a cultural fit and maybe there’s a feature missing that I can figure out a way to plug something else in, then to go with someone that’s a terrible culture fit.
It doesn’t work with what I’m trying to do. But it’s got 500 features, only 10 of which I use. So that was, that was another thing that I think kind of makes, makes what we’re doing a little bit differently or a little bit different. And then frankly, you kind of alluded to it. I serve a younger clientele.
I don’t, I don’t see myself as a sales person. I see, truly see myself as a portfolio manager and a financial advisor, not someone who my job every day is to go get new clients. Of course, I have to get more clients. That’s part of, you know, my livelihood and keeping this business going and growing. So that’s definitely a part of my everyday routine, but I’m patient.
I can play the long game. And I know if I take care of my clients, if I provide an experience that they actually enjoy, instead of dread the growth will take care of itself. And I was listening to a podcast recently. I think it was Arnold Vandenberg. He said when he was young, this is, you know, he’s probably in his seventies and growing his business.
He focused so much on trying to get new clients every day. And he was realizing I had, he had, he said he had the best prospect you could ever imagine. They were ready to do business with somebody. And he was the first one there and he didn’t, I didn’t get the business. And he said, what I realized was I was spending too much time worrying about getting the business.
I wasn’t spending enough time being prepared. So he reset his life focused on preparation and becoming knowledgeable and putting his platforms and systems and getting his mind prepared. And he said the business started flowing. So that’s kind of the approach that I’m taking. I’m doing the things that I enjoy, and I’m trying to create an experience that will help my clients become advocates and help grow my business that way.
And we’ll see how well that will work. But I, I think it’s doing pretty well. So.
William Glass: [00:24:54] Yeah, no, I like that. And it kind of goes back to the whole planning aspect, right? When we’re talking about why you, why you ended up in the air force, right. Is thinking ahead and planning, preparing, making sure that you’re creating a great experience that your customers, clients are gonna absolutely
James Vermillion: [00:25:09] love.
Yeah. And a lot of financial advisors are very impatient, which, you know, it’s not what you’d really want or expect, but when you’re trying to hit some quarterly or some monthly metrics, And that’s all you’re focused on. I think you’re really doing yourself and your, your clients and your future clients, a disservice.
So, you know, yes, those things are still important for me to grow my business, but that’s not what I’m going to focus on when I need to be focusing on the clients. Yeah, absolutely.
William Glass: [00:25:36] I think I can’t remember the stat, but it’s like somewhere around like maybe 10, depending on what industry are 10 times more expensive to go get another, to go get a net new customer than it is to just work with an existing customer and help them see success.
So really growing, growing your client base internally and helping them be successful also helps you as a, as a, as an advisor.
James Vermillion: [00:25:59] Yeah. And my clients are in their, you know, late twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties. And they’re going to come into a lot more money. They’re going to earn more as they grow their own businesses.
A lot of them are entrepreneurs themselves, or as they move up the, the structure at their, you know, at their current place of employment, you know, we’re getting ready to see a massive, massive transfer of wealth coming up over the next decade. So a lot of those clients are going to inherit money and they’re going to need someone to help them determine what the best use of, of that is.
And my future revenue is already here. It’s just a matter of time. And I kind of look at it that way and adding new clients is bonus, but I also want to make sure those clients are a good fit, both for me and for them. Yeah,
William Glass: [00:26:42] absolutely. So along those lines, then James, what are, what are some tips, advice you have for someone who maybe hasn’t worked with a financial advisor before, but has thought about it as interested, wants to explore it?
Like, what are some of the things that you should look for?
James Vermillion: [00:26:59] It’s a great question. I, I tend to want to say some of the industry standard stuff about fiduciaries and all that stuff, and that’s fine. People can Google those things, but what I would really just tell people is make sure that culture is there.
And on the investment side, when I’m looking to choose a new stock to add to a portfolio, for example, I really try to look at a company’s culture. Is that a place I would want to work? Do they have a mission that’s really inspiring or is the mission just to make money making money? Big part of, of the equation of whether or not that’s a suitable stock for me to select, but companies with that mission that is really inspirational, both to employees and to customers.
That’s really important. And I would say that’s very important with an advisor to make sure that, that, that advisor, when you’re, when you’re talking to them, It was just a good fit that you get along, because this is someone you want to be honest with and talking about your life and the good and the bad, and sometimes the ugly it’s someone that you want to be able to relax around.
Instead of, like I mentioned earlier, feeling like you’re planning your funeral, so yeah. You want to feel good about it? It doesn’t have to be, but it’s, you know, younger clients in particular don’t want to feel like everything is a white tie. You know, sometimes they want to just go in and have a conversation and they want to get some things off their chest and they want to plan for their future, but not in a way where they’re uncomfortable.
Sometimes they might just want to have a glass of bourbon with you and talk through some of their goals and aspirations. A financial partner is, is kind of the way I look at it. Not just someone who’s going to tell you. We need to make some adjustments to your asset allocation. Like yeah, that’s, that’s all important, but if you don’t enjoy having those discussions with that person, it’s probably not going to be a very fruitful relationship.
Yeah,
William Glass: [00:28:52] no, that makes a lot of sense that culture fit and being able to build trust and really connect with, with an advisor makes complete sense and creates a better relationship, as you said, for the long-term.
James Vermillion: [00:29:03] Right? Because definitely the
William Glass: [00:29:05] idea of switching advisors every, every year is not advised nor will that probably lead to success.
So finding someone that truly is a good partner
James Vermillion: [00:29:14] is key. Definitely. Yep.
William Glass: [00:29:17] You talked about really being interested in the future and that you’re very optimistic. Can you talk to me a little bit about some of the things you are most optimistic for or things that you’re really excited about based on, based on what you’re seeing in terms of, uh, you know, investments
James Vermillion: [00:29:33] and just.
Yeah, I love talking about this stuff. So you, you might have to stop us at some point because I can really go on, you know, for a, for a long time, but I’ll kind of start more broadly and, and just say, and I wrote a piece about Rosie retrospection and the idea that people view the past more favorably than it was.
And that leads to them thinking worse about the future. And I think that’s a big problem investors, have they underestimate how good it’s going to be in the future? And in a couple pieces I’ve used historical references. I always talk about 1960. And as everyone probably knows that was a pivotal year in American history.
A lot of very difficult things were going on during that time. And I think a lot of people had a hard time seeing light at the end of the tunnel for America and for themselves and their children and their futures. And there are going to be time. Like 1968 where we’re looking at each other saying, oh my gosh, like, are we going to survive this?
And it’s very scary. I mean, COVID, was that to an extent nine 11 was that to an extent the financial crisis, but we get through them and things go on and we’d learned from them and we make them. Better and we’re never going to be perfect. We’re certainly not now, but thinking about the world through that lens of how difficult things have been in the past and how we got through them and generally came out better on the other end, gets me thinking about the future.
You can see that reflected in my portfolio management style, by the way, because you’ll see a lot of things that are kind of based on what I think are macro trends that are shaping the future things. Artificial intelligence and deep learning robotics and digital wallets and decentralized finance, genomic coding, and some of the healthcare possibilities around some of that work that’s going on.
So all of these things, I see brilliant people doing brilliant work, and it’s not in the news every day. I honestly don’t even watch the news all that often because it’s not particularly useful in my opinion. But yeah, those are the things I get excited about and I think. The problems we’re solving now.
And of course we’re going to have new problems. I mean, right now, some of the things that are happening in the green energy space and things happening that are going to help us solve the climate crisis. Now, granted, we pushed them shit to the very edge. We wait until we’re staring down the barrel before we decided to do something.
But when we decided to do it, we’d usually do it pretty quickly. And with a lot of fun, And I think that’s what you’re seeing right now. So yeah, I just, I really do. I see so much opportunity for investors. I see so much opportunity to make everyday life better for people. I want my money to, to benefit from that as well.
And I think. Yeah, no, I like
William Glass: [00:32:22] that a lot, James. And I think that you’re spot on in terms of how we, how we look at the past and have those rose colored glasses. And we forget about all the bad stuff and how are we feeling? And just, you know, we came out of it. So therefore, you know, there were actually good things that happened.
And, you know, we missed that. A lot of the, the same things that we’re experiencing now is what we’re experiencing. 50 a hundred, 200 years ago, whether in history, but we just don’t recognize that there’s that same level of conflict. And feel like, you know, the future’s the challenging part. Yeah. Where do you recommend people go to, you know, you’re not consuming the news.
If I want to educate myself, I want to get smarter about some of these different emerging areas that could be great investments or just interesting things to know, because that’s, our world is going to change because of them. Where do you recommend people go to find those type, that type of thing.
James Vermillion: [00:33:10] Here’s what I see happening.
It goes all directions. You have a choice every day. Of what information you want to consume. If you are thinking of very evil, main thoughts, you can go find a community of people who will echo those thoughts and make you feel good about them. You can do the same with people who. Are very positive about the future.
You can do the same with really any opinion you have. You can go find someone no matter how ridiculous that opinion may be. You’re going to find a group of people out there who will make you feel like you are absolutely right. And that’s where we’re at. I’m not saying it’s the worst thing of all time.
I’m just saying it’s, it’s what I think is the truth of where we’re at with social media and rapid fire information. And reducing very complex ideas. And to headlines, what I have done is I’ve really tried to read more. Books, actual books and that’s foreign to a lot of people. It seems, but reading podcasts, sometimes you don’t need some, a quote unquote expert.
Who’s going to make money off of telling you the news to talk about something. You can hear two people like us having a conversation about it, and maybe you learn something that way. And then even social media, there are really good opportunities. I have learned an incredible amount of information in certain areas in particular artificial intelligence and decentralized finance.
Because there are some brilliant, brilliant people who openly share their knowledge in places like Twitter. Now the danger is you can create your own little bubble where, like I said, you’re hearing exactly what you want to hear. So I think being self aware. And, and understanding that those things can happen and trying to make sure just like you had diversify your investments, make sure you’re diversifying your information and not getting married to some idea that you remain open-minded.
But I think largely it’s a choice you can choose to be open-minded and choose to go find information a different way, or you can choose to sit around and watch the news and get angry and frustrated and fearful about the. Yeah,
William Glass: [00:35:25] no. Yeah. You’re, you’re spot on. It’s so easy now to find the, whatever you’re looking for online, there’s a, someone’s created a blog, a community, a subreddit, a whatever, whatever it is, a discord server or something where you can find absolutely find like-minded industries.
So being able to diversify your information, I think is absolutely spot on. I, I, I’d love to dive a little bit deeper into, into defy specifically. So decentralized finance, I think that’s such a interesting space. And in the context of when we’re recording this, which is early July, 2021, there was a big project that mark Cuban was invested in the defy space that I think a couple of weeks ago went from, looked like he was doing well to zero.
So I’m curious, like, what are you, what are you seeing in the defy space? What are your thoughts? Whether it’s following certain people on, on Twitter? Like what are you thinking when it comes to decentralized finance?
James Vermillion: [00:36:20] Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s a really interesting time. I think we’re not even in ending number one yet.
I think we’re still warming up prior to the game and stretching. So I don’t have really strong opinions on it just yet. I think people, people always want it. Some opinion, right? I’m open to admit that I’m learning right there, along with everyone where I don’t want to find myself, especially as a financial advisor is five or six years from now as if the industry’s changing and the financial world is changing.
And I’m totally ignorant to it because I said, all this is silly. I don’t believe in this or this isn’t beneficial to me. So I’m going to ignore it for a decade. So what I’m really trying to do is learn. I’ll give you an example. I just started the COVID. Actually today for the certified digital asset advisor.
So it’s the first certification that financial advisors can get to have that certification to advise clients on digital assets. Now, my goal is not to go build a practice on advising on digital assets. That’s not, not where I’m at. That’s not where my mind is, but I want to be informed. And I want to understand these concepts.
And I think it goes back to. 2008 that’s when Bitcoin was created coming at, you know, financial crisis was happening. Public trust in financial institutions was, was not, not high to say the least. And another system was offered up. And of course it’s been a 13 year journey from then to now and a lot’s changed.
And now there’s this whole budding space of defy and digital assets. A lot of which is, is probably gonna prove to be absolutely not. And you’re going to hear a lot of those stories of this token or this coin or this digital asset or this cryptocurrency that ended up being absolutely nothing. But on the other hand, I do think that finance system is going to be up ended at some point, not, not in a bad way.
But it’s going to advance, you know, the internet does almost everything at this point and it’s, hasn’t really been able to disrupt traditional finance. And I think that is going to happen in our lifetime. And I just want to understand the concepts. I want to understand what is cryptography. What is Bitcoin mining?
What, you know, when people say mining, what do they mean? You know, when you hear about the blockchain, what is the blockchain, how might that apply to my clients or what other technologies could the blockchain be used for? So it really, if nothing else is exploring what other questions I come up with and tried to seek answers, and I do get excited about it.
I don’t know where it’s going, but I think the possibilities, I think it’s probably like the very, very early days of that. We can’t even fathom at this point, you know, you hear about black swans, like these bad events that no one saw coming. I think they’re also reverse black swans, these good things that we never could anticipate.
And I think when you look back 20 years on around this time, I think it will be one of the big things. You know, the nineties was the internet. Boom. I think this kind of period of time will be a shift in, in finance to, to a largely digital EcoSys.
William Glass: [00:39:30] Yeah. No, absolutely. And that makes a lot of sense. And I wasn’t it, wasn’t trying to get you to take one opinion or just interested in what you’re saying, because there is a lot of, a lot of noise,
James Vermillion: [00:39:40] so much noise just
William Glass: [00:39:41] specifically around cryptocurrencies, but
James Vermillion: [00:39:44] I’m not advocating anyone go load up on cryptocurrencies.
All, all I’m saying. I love thinking about these things. And I think if you are going to do something like that, or if you’re considering buying some cryptocurrency, you need to do the same thing. You need to educate yourself and make sure you actually understand what, what it is you’re doing, what it is you’re buying.
And. A question. I always ask why, if someone comes to me and says, Hey, James, I’ve been looking at this particular stock or this particular cryptocurrency, do you think I should buy some? Well, first off, I probably haven’t done the research on that exact asset. So I’m not going to give them a, a buyer sell opinion.
But second, I usually ask them why, if they have a compelling reason and a thesis as to why. Why they came to conclude that this would be a potentially good investment, then it probably will be okay for them to do that. But a lot of times it’s, well, you know, it’s that FOMO, it’s that hype it’s that seeing crypto millionaires and wanting to be, that’s not a good why, if your, why is because everyone else is doing.
You probably need to go back to the drawing board and really think about how you’re choosing your investments. Yeah, no, I
William Glass: [00:40:50] think that’s, that’s spot on. There’s just so many different coins that pop up and they just try to price some. So they’re super low. So if it goes to a dollar, you know, but there’s, I don’t know how many trillions of coins out there, you know, it’s just, it’s the
James Vermillion: [00:41:03] wild west.
It really is. When I look at that stuff. I can never even keep up. Even if I tried, I couldn’t probably keep up if I had a team of 10 people. So what I’m really trying to do is go back Bitcoin. To me, that was kind of the base. The Bitcoin white paper was really kind of what started this whole movement. So that’s kind of where I’m starting and make sure that I at least have a base level understanding of why it was created.
How it might impact the future. And then I can start to look at, does it make sense to include whether it’s Bitcoin or potentially some other digital asset as a portion of client portfolios? Does it make sense to include 3% or 5% allocation into a growth portfolio? Because Bitcoin is largely uncorrelated.
You know, those are the questions I want to ask and I’m not to the stage at this point and feeling comfortable. Coming up with those conclusions, but I want to get. Yeah, no, that makes sense.
William Glass: [00:42:03] That makes sense. It’s thinking about the underlying use case for a coin, right? Like Ethereum has shown that as a blockchain, there’s, you’re able to build smart contracts and NFTs have come off of that primarily off of Ethereum and there.
So thinking about like, what are the actual uses that people are actually, is there utility in something or is it just, maybe it’ll be doge coin and go to them like, and someone will keep buying it as a joke, like, you know,
James Vermillion: [00:42:28] Uh, yeah, there were a lot of shit coins out there. Right?
William Glass: [00:42:32] Exactly. Exactly. Well, James we’ve, we’ve kind of taken this, this into a very, uh, decentralized, conversation around cryptocurrency, which wasn’t the intent, kind of bringing it back to, to your practice and you know, what you see for the future.
How do you define success? Like what does success look like to you?
James Vermillion: [00:42:53] Oh, I love these questions. I really do because it makes you reflect and examine yourself. I think to me, it really doesn’t even have anything to do with money or objects. I would say it’s how happy I am and satisfied. I am with myself and how proud of myself I am.
If I can look in the mirror every day and feel like I’m doing a pretty good job, then that’s success. And, you know, we all have our demons and we all have our areas for improvement that, you know, we need to work on, but I want to feel like I’m learning every day that I’m challenging myself. That I’m trying to be a good husband and I’m trying to be a good dad, a good friend, a good advisor.
If I’m doing those things. And I feel good about myself and I feel good about what I’m doing then that to me is success pretty simple, but it is yeah.
William Glass: [00:43:42] Getting a good night’s sleep and being able to, to feel good about what you’re doing, what you’re putting out into the world and what you’re accomplishing.
I think that’s absolutely a great point. So we’ve talked a lot about finance in general. What would you say is the best investment that you’ve made
James Vermillion: [00:43:59] yourself? The best investment. Well, people have listened to my podcast, probably know the answer, this, and, yeah, at least from a return standpoint, at least as far as stocks go from a return standpoint, it would be Tesla that said probably the best investment I ever made was some of the early real estate transactions I did because I was, you know, 24, 25 years old and had some, some nice, you know, singles, doubles and triples.
That allowed me to reinvest and, and put me in a position to have a better start than I would have had otherwise. So probably I would say that the real estate, some of those real estate transactions early on. Yeah.
William Glass: [00:44:39] So what type of real estate? I think everyone’s familiar with Tesla. So what type of, of, of real estate investments.
James Vermillion: [00:44:47] Yeah. So, you know, I’ll, I’ll go back just a little bit. I was in the air force and a good friend of mine was here in Lexington and we had kind of talked about real estate before. And when I was a kid, I was fascinated with those flipping shows and all that stuff. I can remember sitting around the living room with my parents and telling them I’m going to do that one day.
That looks fun. So I did. So that friend ended up kind of managing. The actual projects and I was more on the analysis side. So what we did, we basically took a year, tried to learn as much as we could about real estate from the local markets to financing, to actually running, managing a construction project, to, you know, the numbers.
And to me, the numbers part, as you can imagine, that’s what, that’s where I had a lot of fun and, and I spent a lot of time. I can remember. Sitting around and looking around, you know, looking at a house that’s for sale, going home and basically running a simulation. What would this need to look like for this deal to make sense?
And for me to me to make money and. I found an online community called BiggerPockets, which I know you’re aware of. Probably a lot of the listeners are aware of too, but if not, it’s a great place for learning about real estate investing. And I just dug in and I, I started reading everything I could, I started interacting.
I started asking questions. I started writing for them. I was the writer who provided the knowledge. Point of view. So that was, you know, that was kind of fun and, I just really enjoyed it. And then after that year or so we, we bought our first house and I think I ended up doing, I don’t know, probably about 20 flips and made money on 19 ma.
That’s awesome.
William Glass: [00:46:22] That’s awesome. Yeah, so, and definitely, uh, definitely check that out. Right. I think you were one of the, one of the first, the first few guests on bigger pockets.
James Vermillion: [00:46:32] Yeah. And I have no idea why Josh dork had, and Brandon Turner had me on, because frankly, I didn’t really know what I was doing. I was a young guy who was just getting started.
I don’t know if they were throwing me a bone or what, or if they were that desperate at the time, I think it was episode 22 or three, but it was a lot of fun and it, it made me uncomfortable being on that podcast. And anytime I can make myself uncomfortable, I feel like I learn a lot. So, that was a good primer for things to do.
Yeah.
William Glass: [00:47:02] No, absolutely. And definitely, yeah, if you’re interested in real estate, real estate investing BiggerPockets is a great community podcasts, tons of books now. Oh yeah. Forums. And you can find deals now on there. They keep expanding what all’s, what all is on the platform, but it’s a
James Vermillion: [00:47:15] big time now.
William Glass: [00:47:17] Yeah. So definitely, definitely worth checking. James, we don’t always make a decisions. What would you say is the dumbest money mistake that
James Vermillion: [00:47:26] you’ve made? Oh, wow. It’s never fun talking about your mistakes, is it? But it’s, I think it’s really important. I made the same mistake twice, actually. And, and I’ve done a lot of silly stuff, especially when I was younger and had a harder time envisioning 20, 30 years out.
Can I, than I do now, one of the reasons I understand the importance of really. Getting my clients to understand the long-term perspective. Is because I had a hard time doing that when I was younger, I was really hell bent on fast moving things. You know, I liked the excitement of it, almost a gamblers, not almost, it really was a gambler’s mentality.
So I’ve made a lot of those mistakes, but something that sticks out to me, this is the one that still bothers me. I guess I didn’t take my own advice. As far as when you have a high conviction, an idea, or a company or a stock or whatever it is. And you really understand it very well. That’s, especially when you need to tune the noise out and stick with your thesis and go from there.
I hate to bring Tesla back into the fold, but I’m going to anyway, I sold a good chunk of my Tesla position. Way too early, because I got freaked out by what people who probably didn’t know what they were talking about were saying. And you know, that was one of the bigger regrets and it’s not just because of the money I missed out on.
It was because of the feeling I had. Of, I didn’t stick to what I believed in and I allowed myself to be influenced by outside noise. So that was kind of like the disappointing part, you know, shame. You’re like looking at the mirror and you’re just mad at yourself. And again, it wasn’t so much the money, but just that feeling.
But I learned a valuable lesson and that’s one of the reasons I really have these conversations with my clients. And I really have that conversation with myself when I’m managing money. Why would I make this change if I don’t have a good reason? I’m not going to do it. I’m not getting paid on churning portfolios pain because people trust me to help them reach their goals.
It’s a, it’s a fight. You have to fight every day because it’s very easy to find reasons to be active when the best thing to do is not to be active. Yep. So, so that that’s one and I’ll give you another one too. Another one was, and this goes really, it’s an entrepreneurship lesson. As much as it is a money lesson.
A couple of times I’ve quit too. And I say that not in like a quitter’s mentality, like I give up, but in the sense that. And it really goes back to that real estate piece. I was building a nice little real estate business, and again, I allowed myself to be spooked. This was back, you know, several years ago, everyone’s saying interest rates are going to go up housing market’s over priced.
We’re going to see another oh 8 0 9. Oh, here it comes. And I ended up divesting a lot of that, which luckily I put into things that, that also did well, but again, I let that noise influence my decision. And I mean, look at how look at the housing market today compared to six years ago, five years. Would have been fine.
I would’ve done a spine. Had I left it in there. So those are two of the lessons, unfortunately, the same lesson twice. But I think, I think I finally, I learned it that second time. I’m
William Glass: [00:50:44] glad you, you brought that up. I think it’s a, it’s very easy to get spooked or distracted or, you know, let other opinions, which you should be taking in other information, but also, you know, making sure that it’s valid and not just for them.
Someone who’s just has a loud voice and doesn’t really know what they’re talking
James Vermillion: [00:51:02] about. Well let’s face it. I mean, most of those people, or at least a good chunk of them, they’re getting paid for, for clicks and views and things like that. So the louder and more obnoxious they are, and the more fear they can conjure up, oftentimes the better, the better they do.
So their interests aren’t necessarily aligned with, with what you’re trying to achieve. So I think people just need, keep that in mind,
William Glass: [00:51:25] James, along those lines, what would you say. The biggest challenge, one of the biggest challenges that people are facing today when it comes to
James Vermillion: [00:51:33] finances and building that’s a good one.
I think expectations are really challenging. I think people set their sights too low to be perfectly honest. I know it’s probably not what you were expecting me to say, but I’ve noticed this with, with a lot of my younger clients, they’re making good money. They’re doing a pretty good job of saving they’re investing.
And then when you go to sit down with them and talk about the future, they vastly underestimate what they’re probably going to achieve, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Obviously that’s better than overestimating what you’re going to achieve. But I think a lot of that is maybe a humility thing.
People don’t want to weird to talk about being rich in the future. Especially if you come from like a humble background, but I think a lot of it too is just not understanding how powerful some of these things are. I mean, compounding, I think we talked about it when you came on on my show, it’s incredibly powerful.
And when you run even just some basic future value calculations with somebody, you oftentimes blow their mind because. Just can’t wrap their head around how a relatively small amount of money along with some contributions over time and compounding returns can just absolutely blow the top off, you know, so I want to get people excited about the future.
Get them thinking about buying yachts. I mean, if they do it even better, but you know, I want to get them thinking about being successful. And I think when people can start to taste it and feel it, and they can start to see it, that gives them a little extra fire to keep doing what they’re doing instead of getting discouraged after the first two or three years.
As you know, with, with compounding, when you look at that chart, that’s the whole nature of compounding. It hits that velocity. Yeah. I try to keep people focused and really thinking longer term. And I think that’s the challenge. Everything is. So short-term today, it’s it’s quarter to quarter it’s month to month.
It’s day to day it’s what’s the market up or down today. And it distracts people. They underestimate. The the longterm impact and they overestimate the short-term fluctuations.
William Glass: [00:53:41] I think that’s a great answer. The expectations is a, is definitely something that, especially if you’re just thinking short term and not thinking about long-term, don’t understand compound interest, it’s easy to feel helpless that you never can really get ahead or that, you know, you’re not doing enough because you saw someone on social media who did, you know, whatever bought that coin and ended up, you know, And doubled their money in two days.
And you’re like, why didn’t I do that? You know? So I think on both sides of the equation, I think that’s a great observation.
James Vermillion: [00:54:13] Yeah. And maybe it’s a little counterintuitive because of course there are a lot of people out there who are overestimating what they’re, what they’re going to do. But I found that most people, they just don’t see it.
And then maybe it goes back to that Rosie retro retrospection thing, or maybe it just goes back to some of those concepts and some probably cognitive biases that people have. But it’s really hard for people to imagine just this abundant future. But I think if you go back and yeah, Your grandparents or, you know, if you could go back and ask your great, great grandparents, things probably turned out a lot better for a lot of people than they expected.
And what I would like to see is more people to have that experience, people who didn’t have access to some of the things that are out there, the concepts, the education for those people that have those same futures ahead of them, and to not only have them ahead of them. Just be able to see them and to be able to reach for them.
Yeah. And I know you’re working on that.
William Glass: [00:55:08] Yeah. Well, that’s, I think, I think we’re aligned there and this goes back to what you were talking about earlier, about how you see the future in more of a positive light. Right. I think that’s exactly what I heard there. Things will, will be better. They can get better.
And if you stop listening to all of the instant, let me grab your attention right now. The world’s on fire and everything’s terrible and horrendous. And look past that and look at what’s what’s going on and see the positive things and see how things can get better. You’ll have just a completely different experience life.
James Vermillion: [00:55:38] Absolutely. And there’s that famous? Jeremy Siegel quote, fear incites human action, far more urgently than does the impressive weight of historical level. And that is so true, right? I mean, all sides can be pointing one way, but if something freaks people out, they’re going to lose their minds.
William Glass: [00:55:57] Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. That fear uncertainty and doubt that’ll, that motivates that fight or flight instinct that kicks into our lizard brains when that gets triggered. So yeah,
James Vermillion: [00:56:06] exactly.
William Glass: [00:56:07] Absolutely. James. This has been a, been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you sitting down. And we talked a lot at the practice, the wealth management practice.
We didn’t even talk about the other business that you have, which we’ll have to save that for another question. Cause I think there’s a lot of lessons learned there and I know we talked about it a little bit on your podcast, so have to save that for, uh, for round two, I think.
James Vermillion: [00:56:27] Absolutely. Absolutely.
William Glass: [00:56:29] I really appreciate you sitting down and spend a lot of fun.
If you could leave the audience with any last words that you want impart them with, and then also please let us know how we can connect with you outside
James Vermillion: [00:56:38] of this. Yeah, I would just say, if you’re not investing or thinking about your, your future start today and you don’t, you know, it doesn’t matter where you’re at.
Doesn’t matter if you’re doing well, or if you’re struggling, it doesn’t matter if you’re 17 or 70, if you start now, you’re probably going to be better. Then you would be if you didn’t. So I would say that’s the parting wisdom. I would give someone, and give the listeners and then you guys can find me online.
Obviously you mentioned the podcast, bulls bears and bourbon, so they can listen to that anywhere where they’re listening to your podcast and then for a million private wealth.com, that’ll take you to my website. I’m on LinkedIn, Twitter, all those fun things. I’m notoriously bad at social media though.
Take that take that for what it’s worth.
William Glass: [00:57:24] Awesome. And all the links will be in the show notes for sure. But, uh, James, thanks again for sitting down.
James Vermillion: [00:57:28] This was a lot of fun. Absolutely. I enjoyed it. William. Good stuff. And I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you.
William Glass: [00:57:34] Way out. Please share the podcast with others. It’s the only way that the community grows and others hear these incredible stories from entrepreneurs and top performers.
Pound that subscribe button. So you’re notified when new episodes drop every Friday, I’m William Glass, CEO and co-founder of ostrich. And of course your host of the Silicon alley podcast have a very profitable day. You got no time
to waste, but still you, as it say, caught in a circle say, and I’ll never leave this place
Some words got you searching for the bright side over and over.
End of Transcription
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